LET ME WARN YOU, this is a very long conversation. 3 hours long and the beauty of the conversation is this, we could disagree from a loving place and still choose to both believe what we believe but that did not stop us from listening to each other.
i hope you will sit back with a coffee or a scotch and a cigar and just listen. i promise you, this is a fun conversation.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/daniel-bruce-levin-pjp-15/id1471792924?i=1000460418267